I was given a spa by a customer and had it stored at a friends for a year and finally got around to hooking it up. I put some water in it and got the pump to run, but I have a couple questions. I have some pictures of it at http://www.hampleman.com/spa2.htm 1) I can't find any sign of a heater. Where is the heater? 2) What are the small clear plastic tubes for going to the controls panel? 3) Why does the blower go threw the handlebar? 4) I think the motor is a 3/4 hp 2 speed. I was wondering if I could upgrade it to a 1 hp using a shallow well pump. Thanks, Dan

Not a bad looking shell, but the plumbing is a basket case!

To answer your questions:

1) The heater is that stainless steel tube on the output side of the pump. It's got a grey box attached to it. Inside that box is the high-limit switch. Should also be a flow/pressure switch.


2) The clear plastic 1/4" lines are for the pneumatic push buttons that actuate the functions of the spa. Instead of having high voltage in an area exposed to wet hands, you press the air buttons on the spaside and the little puff of air actuates the electrical switch inside the control box.


3) The blower runs through the handrail to get a loop up above the water line. This is done to prevent water from backflowing into the blower. For extra safety, there should be this loop and also a check valve.

4) You could, but performance may not be what you expect. Plus, you really need the low speed of a 2 speed pump for filtering and circulation during heating.

Honestly, you can hack this thing back together, but everything looks kinda rough (that pump supported by just the plumbing is downright scary and I'm sure the duct tape holding the blower line together has seen better days!) and really needs totally redone. It may be in your best interest to buy a basic spa pack with new motor, blower, heater, and controls. Real sweet and simple to install and get you into hot water.

Everything looks really scary right now, but if you do want to get by for now with the current equipment, invest in a good run of flexible PVC and relocate that equipment onto a solid pad. That pump just hanging by the pipe is a disaster waiting to happen.

Bond all of that equipment together and make sure that poor old thing is running through a new and properly wired GFCI breaker.

(EDIT NOTE) Just saw the rest of the photos and I see the pump is supported in one of the other photos. Are some of the photos before and afters?

hey thanks, I'll ask down at my local spa supply house for a replacement kit. The photos are just as they are. The pump is sitting on a block of wood. I really need to build some supports for it before I fill it again. I'll post more pics when I get it running again.

Dan

Oh, the pics on the bottom left are just after I set it in place. I had wires holding some of the hardware up so I could turn it sideways and get it threw the door.

Dan

Ahh, okay, that's what I saw that threw me. It looked as if the pump was just hanging by the plumbing. Then I saw in another photo it was sitting on the ground.

As long as it's not hanging by any plumbing, you are pretty good to go. I'd still screw it down to secure it from torqueing around when it kicks on.

How does the pump sound when it runs? If it sounds quiet and smooth, with no water slinging everywhere, I'd keep using it until it dies.

But I would still want to replace the control pack and heater at least once you get serious with the tub and decide you want to keep it alive.

The pump sounds fine. I think it was running at low speed when I tested it. I still need to build a frame for it so I can fill it up all the way and I want to run a wire from my breaker box with a 20A breaker so I can test the heater.

Dan

Oh, I meant to ask, do you know where I can get replacement filters for this thing?

Dan

I'm building a frame for it and if I can get a 20A line to it, I may test it again. Dan http://www.hampleman.com/spa.htm

I don't know what exactly your tub takes, but looking at the picture, t's probably a standard 25 SqFt cartridge available at any pool and spa place, or even online at http://www.spapartsnet.com. Check the filter case label and it should say if it takes a 50 or 25 SqFt cartridge. The basic pleated filters are pretty much generic materials. Just need the right size really.

If this tub is something you plan on keeping and upgrading, you may wish to go ahead and run 6 gauge four wire and connect it to a 50 amp double pole GFCI breaker. I gather from what I can see that this tub is currently 120 volts, but having 220 and a 50 amp circuit available is nice for future upgrades. That current spa pack may not be convertible, but whatever you replace it with may be convertible, or 220 only. And 220 is nice because foremost the heater's wattage is more than doubled. Much faster heat times and quicker recovery. Plus most, if not all, spa packs will allow the heater to run while the pump is on HIGH. This helps keep the water near your ideal temperature while the cover is off and you are bubbling away with air mixed in with the water streams. Unless you want to take on major replumbing to add another pump and more jets, it may not be worthwhile to run the 220 circuit. YOur tub will still get hot and bubbly on 120, it's just faster with 220. But just think about it while you are still in the set-up and build stage.

Not often are spa packs or spas in general set up to be able to run the heater in high. Especially true when you get multiple pumps. The reason is because of the very high current draw, most setups don't have adequate wiring to handle it. Typically a 240V spa will need between 40-50 amps, and with the high speed pump(s) running as well this need can jump up to 60+. That is some hefty wiring and circuit protetction. 240V spa packs will allow the heater to heat in low, but not very often can they be made to heat in high.

The filter looks to be a Rainbow RTL series, using either the C-4625 or the C-4950 filter cartrige. Based on length, I would assume the C-4625. The last two numbers are the filter size in square feet.

I'm wondering is 10AWG good for 20A?

Dan

I guess I need a new seal. I noticed the surface was kind of rough so I sanded it down with a belt sander but that didn't seem to help.

I might also add that I dont have a filter in it. Or not the right kind anyway. I found some foam and stuffed it in there just to try to clear up some of the silt in the tub.

Dan

foam isn't a good idea... the chemicals can break it down and cause it to flake and get into the pump... the closed cell construction will massivly restrict flow.

as for wire gauge:
14ga is good for 15A, 12ga good to 20A, 10ga good to 25-28A.

The seal you are referring to, pump seal maybe? Anyway, a belt sander would destroy the seal. Would have been better off to run the seal dry for a short period of time to resurface it.

Hmm, didn't know that. Just drawing from my experience with my hot tubs I've had over the years. One with a Nu-Wave controller and the other two Morgans. All three would allow the heater to run with the pump on high when wired 220. When running on 110, the Nu-Wave would shut down the heater.

My current Morgan Monaco has dual pumps and a blower. All three motors can run on high, plus the heater, and the 50 amp breaker never fusses. It's wired with about 25 feet of 6 gauge.

It looks like someone previously tried to glue it. No wonder why he gave the thing away. I'm going to try some JB weld.

Dan
http://www.hampleman.com/images/hottub/PICT0276.JPG

I didn't know that typically the heater only runs during low speed. I was thinking that if you could isolate the input wiring to the heater relay and wire it to its own breaker, you could have smaller wiring and breakers for each circuit and when any breaker would trip, you would know where to look for the problem. Just a thought. (But I don't think my controller box will allow that the way its designed).

Dan

Some older spa manufacturers did actually do this. They had a separate panel that housed a breaker for the heater, a breaker for the pump, and a breaker for the blower. This sub panel was fed from a single larger breaker in the home. It didn't help greatly for diagnostics since the panel was all fed from a GFI in the home panel, any current leakage would trip the home panel GFI before the sub panel breakers would trip. The only advantage this would have would be if the component (like a motor) overloaded but not ground fault.

and its drawing 15A in slow speed and around 8A on high. It doesn't seem to be putting out any heat, but its drawing 15A so I guess it takes a while.

Dan

15A is probably about right if you are running on 120V. At that rate, the spa will take a long time to heat. prolly 3-5 degrees an hour.

I'm wondering what these holes are for.

Everything's working. I had to buy a new blower and filter cannister. A total of about $250 for everything. Just waiting for it to heat up for its breakin.

those "holes" are the air control knobs for the jets... controls how much bubble action you get at the jets.

Looks good! Congrats!

There's a seal around it and its kinda hard to get the cap back in let alone turn it. Thanks for your blessing, BTW.

Dan

put some petroleum jelly on the o-ring seal and see if that helps

when the temp gets up to around 95F the GFCI socket trips. I measured the ohms from either prong of the plug to the ground prong and got a resistance of around 8M ohm. I thought, this is not good. I then unplugged each appliance that plugs into the control box and still got the same reading. So am I to assume there's something wrong with the controller box? A short to ground?

Dan

I want to be sure I'm understanding this correctly.

The GFI doesn't trip anytime the temperature is below 95 degrees?

Is it possible it is the high limit that is tripping out?

8M (Meg) Ohms is no where near a short circuit. 8 Ohms, however, would be. I can't see 8M Ohms causing a GFI fault. Please verify this reading.

Thanks Charger, I just took the wiring from the controller box to the heater and measured ~6M ohms to ground. I'm not sure how the limit sw. works quite yet, but I remember the first couple times it quite on me I reset the limit switch and then reset the GFCI and it worked. Hope that helps.

Dan

Is it always tripping both the high limit and the GFI?

I just measured it again (the wires coming from the heater) and there's a resistance of around 11-12M from the hot to ground and the neutral to ground. I don't measure anything across the 110v legs from the plug when I take the wires from the heater loose from the control box. Maybe the insulation is breaking down. Just after it tripped the GFCI I tried reseting the limit sw and the GFCI and plugged it back in and it tripped the GFCI again.

Dan

We just posted at the same time - I'll hook it back up again and see.

Dan

based on the post you posted at the same time as my post, it does sound like it's leaning towards a bad element. The surefire way to tell is if the GFI holds when the element is completely disconnected. You should measure around 8-12 ohms between the hot and neutral of the element (not to ground). If you don't have any resistance (infinite) on these two test points then your element would be "open" and need to be replaced. While the element is disconnected, if you have resistance between the hot and ground or neutral to ground, it is likely to trip your GFI.

Hope this helps

I just hooked it back up and its running with the heater on. I didn't measure the ohms between the neutral and hot but its drawing the correct amps. The water temps still around 95 so I'll see what happens.

Dan

Now I'm confused. I started it up and let it run. I went to sleep for a couple hours, got up and it was off. The GFCI wasn't tripped and neither was the reset on the heater. I turned the breaker off and back on and it came back on.

Dan

It did it again. It's def. the reset sw. I can push the relay in with a screwdriver and it starts. The relay measures a voltage drop of 120v across it even though I try to reset it, so wouldn't that mean the reset sw is bad? What if I jumpered it out? I guess I could try that (with an 11' pole).

Dan

OK, I can jump out the reset sw and it comes on. What's the worst that could happen? As long as I'm not in it.

Dan

so it's not the GFI tripping... well the high limit reset will trip out if the reset switch is out of range, requiring replacement. If you leave it jumped out, your heater may run rampant and overheat, and could cause premature failure of the element, warping of the plumbing, buckling and cracking of the spa shell, the potential for a fire, and could also burst a pipe and cause a flood.

"your heater may run rampant and overheat"

but that's only if the thermostat doesn't shut it off, right?

Dan

It's a question of when, not if. User beware- it can cook you.

thermostat problem, or sticking contactor are likely causes of that

point well taken