A few weeks ago, I paid a grand for the damn thing! I think I emptored, when I should have caveated, or something. It's a late 80s or early 90s Sovereign. It LOOKS like it's in deceptively nice shape. Has the dials for temp/light on kind of a kidney-shaped panel if that helps date it.

Anywhoo,
3 pretty major leaks that I've seen so far. You should see 'em when the thing's running! (also heater and ozonator's broke, but we'll get to that later)

I know: dig, dig and dig some more. I already started. Don't let anyone tell you you can salvage the skirting redwood... NONE has csme off whole so far... all stuck to foam or adhesive in addition to the staples. I have an idea for a custom skirt, so if anyone wants any redwood skirt scraps (some closer to whole than others) you can have 'em for shipping! Or come get 'em (3 hours west of Chicago).

Back to the leaks. What I'm looking for (now that I've dug one whole corner about to the shell) is whether anyone has any clues about likely sources, common leak points etc. The spots where the water's REALLY coming out - steady with nothing running, really flowing when jets are on - are on the left of the equipment compartment where a main flex pvc comes in and goes into the end (horizontal) connection of the pump. The 2nd one is somewhere in by the light. The 3rd is running in by the pump hot air vent hose on the right side of the compartment.

I've COMPLETELY emptied the compartment... pumps, ozonator, light, all of it out of there. Hopefully better access for pinpointing where the water's coming out. And like I said, I've dug out most of one corner (front-left)... I found a little damp foam of uncertain source, and so far haven't found any obvious leaks. And the diggin's NOT easy! So any clues would be most appreciated!

Seriuosly, thanks for ANY help!
Shawn

most leaks occur at the junction of flex pvc and hard pvc, or even the plastic of the jets. Check those first. Also, jets can leak around the gaskets where they go through the walls. The last most common source of a leak is in the flex pvc hose itself. If it's ever seen a freeze (frozen pipes) this is a likely cause. The best bet is to keep diggin in that case. Once a leak is found you will just have to cut across the leak and put in a coupler. Use flex pvc cement.

Other possible sources of leaks (other than plumbing) is the pump unions, pump housing, pump rear seal, heater housing, thermowells. These would redily be noticed in the equipment bay.

A quick tip aboput removing the redwood without damaging it- you have to sacrifice the top piece on a horizontal stack. Take a knife and carefully cut the "tongue" all the way through, so when you go to pry that board off, you'll expose (without damaging) the tongue of the board below, while leaving the cut tongue in the top groove, which can be removed later. You might have to run your blade in between the groove over the botton tongue a few times to remove any silicone, but once you get the hang of it, you'll be removing those boards without damaging them in no time. There's just no substitute for experience.

Also, take a VERY close look at the spa SHELL around the light lens. Look for what might look like a peice of thin hair. Might have a shell leak.

One area that is supposed to be prone to leaks is around the light lens. Reach in and feel the insulation right underneath the lens and see if it is wet. You'll have to drain the tub and remove and reseal that area if it is leaking there.


Tom

Quick update: I filled the tub and put in 2 pints (!) of red food coloring. Looked like a bad slasher movie! Took me a week to get back to it, and when I got it up on blocks, crawled underneath, I found 3 spots where water was dripping or had dripped. I started digging out foam at the closest one and 2 inches in, came across a connection that is the first obvious source of leakage. It is a small (1"-1.25" flex PVC line coming into a larger (2"+) green flex line by way of a "T" fitting. It appears that the joint wh between the cut and slide the tube back over. Or is there a more sound idea?

I can post pics next week if neccessary.

I expect to be continuing my search this weekend.

There definitely seems to be a major leak by the light (not explained by the smallish leak I found underneath (described above), but in the same location)

Where the light is, there is a second layer of fiberglass (ie: a back "false" wall for the equipment compartment.) It's not really attached to anything at thetop... I'm thinking I can just cut this out of my way, but other than that, any tips on removing/resealing the light lens?

Another Update, got the thing flipped on its side (that was fun - by myself) and started more digging out the bottom. Found another suspected leak.

Is there any standard "map" of the plumbing for this tub (mid-90s HS Sovereign)? That might help me chase down these leaks. The second leak is in about dead center of the bottom where there are a couple of connections that seem like likely culprits.

I'm still concerned that these aren't the primary leaks. Seems hard to believe these would cause the significant flow I was seeing in the equipment bay. Especially behing the "false" back wall (where the light cage mounts). Btw, last time I filled it, the leak did not seem to be coming from the light lens area, just seemed to be showing up right below there where that white "batting" insulation is. Not 100% sure (leaks acted significantly differently under power of course) but I can attack the light lens later if need be, it's the hidden leaks I'm worried about.

Again, request any advice on repairing these leaky connections, looking for a high quality solution. I'd rather do a great job that's permanent, even if it's harder/more costly. Also clues on where else/how far to chase these lines. Should I just try to expose all of them, to ensure I don't miss something? Or is some (tiny, I hope) leakage inevitable on a tub this old? In that case, any advice on some point of diminishing returns as far as chasing leaks goes?

Thanks much,
Shawn

After going back and re-reading some leak-related posts, I wanted to note that, despite some advice to the contrary, using dye to trace leaks has helped in my case quite a bit. I have been able to pinpoint 3 definite leaks. I'm not convinced these are my biggest culprits, but it was absolute confirmation. Also is helping kind of trace where wtare was going to/coming from. I could actually see red tinted water dripping from the fittings! I used 2 pints of red food coloring purchased at a restaurant supply store for about $4 each.

\

Did you have any issues with the dye staining the tub?? I know there are dye packs for checking out septic systems....Ever try one of those?


Tom - who is chasing a leak, but not doesn't have enough time to work on it very much right now.

Also,
I've been thinking about this problem after digging nearly 12" into the insulation and not finding the leak I was chasing....

There are things called borescopes or fiberscopes....cameras on long flexible tubes....some are 6' long....1/4" diameter....I think if you had one you could put it in through the jets and locate the leaks by sight and then know where to dig, rather than just chasing wet spots...

I've been spending a fair bit of time on the phone with the local service guy who is an hour plus away. He has no issue with me digging the foam out myself. He figures he'll still be able to get his guys to come do the repair afterwards. Anyway I he has the plumbing diagrams for all the Hot Springs tubs, being a dealer and all. So he was very happy to fax them to me. It was 4 or 5 pages. One each for the pressure side, suction side and air lines. What I saw immediately is that where I'm digging, there is only one line in that area, and It doesn't have an apparent leak anywhere in it yet.

From reading on the group here, it seems like most of the leaks occur at the junctions of multiple lines or going into a jet.

If I knew where to dig, flipping the tub up on it's side would be the way to go. Some much easier than being underneath with water dripping on you!


Tom

Good idea but it won't work... most leaks aren't physical breaks that you can see, they are pinholes and often in the solvent-weld applied to the joint...

I agree with Charger, neither of the leaks I've found so far would be visible from inside (joint leaks)

As far as the dye job, yeah, my jets are all currently pink. but I care much less about that than having a tub that actually works. And who knows how permanent it is? In any case I guarantee I won't care a bit when (if) I'm soaking in 104 in January while it snows!

The tinted water dripping out of the bottom (once I put it on blocks) in 3 places was incentive enough to flip it.

The one I'm worried about the most (I fear I may be about to chase evry inch of plumbing... how else can I be sure I got it?) is the one near the light lens. Still don't know how I'm gonna get in there.

Photos coming!

if you use chlorine for sanitizer, the pink color on the jets could likely bleach out. If not, you just created a custom color. I've used food coloring a few times to help trace leaks. I didn't use so much though. The little 4 pack you get at the store works good enough, using the blue and green, to dye a 450 gallon spa. All you need is a hint of color that you can see on a white paper towel.

I've got the plumbing diagrams. Need Serial #, I-_________? email it to scarritt@snet.net. There are some specialty plumbing fittings in there not readily available, but from a HS dealer.

>I agree with Charger, neither of the leaks I've found so far would be >visible from inside (joint leaks)

Ah...ok....I thought from reading the posts on there that I was looking for split lines, either in low spots or at the junctions or unions.

I'm leaking an inch every 3 days.....I figured that to be a pretty decent size leak...but realistically it isn't a big split in a main pressure hose.

>As far as the dye job, yeah, my jets are all currently pink. but I care >much less about that than having a tub that actually works. And who >knows how permanent it is? In any case I guarantee I won't care a bit >when (if) I'm soaking in 104 in January while it snows!

Ya....that's true....a Good working spa on the cheap is always a good thing regardless of the looks.

>The tinted water dripping out of the bottom (once I put it on blocks) in 3 >places was incentive enough to flip it.


Tom

After a brutal (tragically hot tub-less) late winter keeping me from tub repairs, it's time to get back to it. Tub's still on it's side, 2 leaks dug out (though not cleanly enough to repair yet) After seeing the condition of the joints I exposed. My plan is to pretty much trace all of the plumbing (first on the underside, then up the side if it seems neccessary) and fix ANY suspect connections. hot tub.pool boy if you still have those schematice, the serial number is IQ271484. I've also emailed it to you.

Any other advice on digging, prepping connections, best repair practices (I don't want to this again for a LONG time), things to look for, etc... all greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all the help and advice! Here go my next few Sundays!
Shawn

Shawn,
I'll look for the email tommorrow when I go into work.

OK, so I have almost ALL of the plumbing dug out (I'll post photos as soon as I get 'em off my camera)... Somewhere near 50% of the flex shows strong pink from the dye. I understand ANY amount of that could be capillary action along the outside from some other leak, but clearly a couple of nipples were leaking. And there are of course other problems.

The bigger question is... do I totally replumb this thing? Is it worth it?

I'm about a grand into it to begin with.

The pump,controller, heater... all good.
I put in the dual amperage panel that Hot Springs spas need, all ready to go.

But...

I've taken nicks out of most of the flex with the claw of the hammer.
***Anyone who tells you they can de-foam an entire tub and not destroy most of the flex is either lying or has 100-times more patience and a lot more spare time than I do***

Today, I just broke a chunk out of some kind of clear/smoky plastic fitting, a big, expensive looking one.
Winter (Tub Season) is coming soon.
I cannot afford to buy another tub - certainly not new.
(especially since it will take a LONG time for the sting of this one to wear off)

So question 1:
All new flex and bleed lines

replace whatever fitting that was I broke today (if the bottom of the tub were a clock face, it's about at 5:30 - with the pump and gear at 9:00, and the motossage at 1:00 - looks like it's below the 3 corner jets. On my diagram from David Scarritt, it looks like it's where a piece of 2" flex Y's into 2 smaller pieces).

replace all or most of the nipples
plus cement, clamps for the bleeds, and refoam (I've save most of the chipped out foam to restuff some of the big holes.

What's that gonna cost approximately? Anyone have a ballpark?
And more importantly...

IS IT WORTH IT?

I know. Only I can answer what having a relaxing, rejuvenating hot tub on my deck is worth to me (I'd say so far I've proven that it means quite a bit). But a man's got his limits. Past that lurks insanity, with me mumbling something about foamed-in, hi-limit, Watkinses coming to get me...

And, I'm not going to go through another winter with it out there on its side, not working, mocking me (and the crap I get from friends... a whole other story).

So whattaya think?
Anyone?

Summary of my last post: I have to replace all of the flex and that one clearish/brownish large fitting mentioned above in my mid-90s Sovereign.

Anyone got an estimate of what that'll cost? Know of any good deal on flex/cement, etc?

I have about 1 week weather-wise to decide whether to fix it or sawzall it and stop pissing my neighbors off (it's on its side all dug out - not pretty.)

Thanks
Shawn