I am looking to purchase a new hot tub and have been told that the Bullfrog spas are very good. I don't know anything about them. Checked out the website and they look pretty cool. I would love to hear any pros and cons about them. Thanks!

Here is my biased opinion-I am a dealer that sells Bullfrog. Many things in hot tubs are similiarly like: fully foam filled(high end tubs), Balboa controls, AquaFlo 56 frame pumps, Waterway jets, etc...

Where Bullfrogs differ from everyone else is that 90% of the plumbing is in the water with you. This is done by having Jetpaks. INSTEAD of drilling holes in the side of the tub, Bullfrog drills holes in the Jetpaks. Having these Jetpaks give you alot of benefits.

Practical benefits are:
1. Limited holes drill into the tub that is holding water. In Bullfrog's tub that has 73 jets there are only 13 holes as compared to 73+ holes in everyone else's tub.
2. 90% less plumbing. Less plumbing means more power.
3. 90% of the plumbing is in the water with you. It is easily accessible. The other 10% is the 2 inch feeder tube that gets the water to the Jetpaks. It is hard PVC pipe and is fully insulated.
4. The air mix is a 50/50 mix with the air coming from the chamber where the pumps are(heated) as opposed to air outside the tub(cold in the winter).
5. No diverter valves so every seat can enjoy 100% power.

Personal benefits are:
1. You can customize how your tub feels from the beginning by choosing which Jetpaks you want.
2. You can customize where your Jetpaks are located in your tub(instead of the manufacturer).
3. You can upgrade your hot tub down the road as new Jetpaks are invented or as your therapy needs change.
4. Bullfrog is the only tub with a movable waterfall.
5. You can have peace of mind that your Jetpak plumbing(90% of the plumbing) has a lifetime warranty(lifetime of the original owner).

All in all it comes down to: do you like the way it feels and do you like the price and do you like the dealer. A good dealer should stand behind whatever spa they sell. No tub is perfect-they are all man-made. So the decision is still up to you, yes I love the Bullfrog Spas-it is the only brand I sell. Is it the only good spa on the market? No! Is it the only one that has Jetpaks and gives you choices on how you want it to feel---YES!

While what Mark stated is true, other spa tub manufacturers will say the exact opposite, and what they say is probably true, too. It's all relative, and there is no perfect way to compare the features, because everyone has their own niche and version of each feature.

Here's what I've found. We've been looking for about four months now for a spa and finally decided on an Arctic Spa. However, we were about 90% set on buying a Bullfrog right before we ran across the Arctic.

The Bullfrog was the cheapest for what it offered. We liked the idea of the plumbing with regard to the JetPaks; it all made sense. We were told by other spa companies that it was mostly a gimmick, and while we dismissed that for a while, after looking in depth at Arctic and other companies, we tend to agree. But beware: everyone will tout that what they have is best. We wet-tested the Bullfrog right before we were pretty much ready to buy it, mostly as a formality to cement our decision, and we were more disappointed than we expected to be. This prompted us to look into other brands, which we foolishly had not done prior.

During the wet-test of the Bullfrog model we were ready to purchase--the 451 with a single lounger--we tried out about 7 of the JetPaks. I was most interested in the Mini Neckblaster. However, despite my interest in this JetPak, what really held my concentration was trying to stay put in the lounger. I am 5'2" and I found the jets were constantly pushing me out of it. It was so distracting and not at all what I expected to happen. I don't really even recall enjoying the Neckblaster, their most popular JetPak. The seats were so comfortable when I first sat in it (dry), but that was no longer the case.

Anyway, we discovered the Arctic Spa and learned so many good things about it--the owner used to do repairs for years on all brands of spas before he settled on Arctic only and then to do the sales of them--that we quickly saw the disadvantages of the Bullfrog. We like the fact that should a problem arise, 8 panels around the Arctic cabinet are accessible and the technician doesn't have to pick away at closed foam, and then spray a can of foam back into it to "seal" it. We love the look of the cedar cabinet, and from what I've read and discussed, it takes a once-yearly application of a stain you can buy at Lowe's to maintain it. It was $2000 more than the Bullfrog but it made so much more sense than what the Bullfrog offered, and we're ending up with a more spacious spa without compromising the features we desired. However, our Arctic Spa is being delivered in four days, and then time will tell.

I would seriously reconsider buying the Bullfrog without at least researching 6-8 more companies, including the high-end ones (like Arctic, Sundance, Hot Spring, Master Spas, etc.). Be sure that the gimmicky things are things you truly want. For instance, the few people I know who like their Bullfrog never actually move the JetPaks--one of the well-advertised features (aka gimmicks) of the Bullfrog. You tend to put it in one location and leave it there. Sure, there's a "removable" waterfall, but to remove it, you have to have another JetPak to put in it's place--not a cheap thing...about $250-450. Also, less holes in the shell is terrific; however, there are still plenty of holes in the Bullfrog: the vents, the foot jets, the light, etc., and all it takes is one. I do like their warranty, but there is less cabinet access, which makes me nervous. I like the less plumbing aspect mentioned, and I don't know yet if that makes a difference. However, there were statements made from my local Bullfrog dealer that were contradictory, and there did seem to be a diverter scenario when we commented that the jets didn't seem as powerful as expected.

Anyway, I hope this helps. If you're looking for anymore details, please let me know and I can follow up later. Good luck!

I respect your decision to buy another tub but first let me make a few clarifications:
1. Most people who have the cedar cabinets HATE having to stain it every year. They also will shrink over time. Most of the main spa manufacturers are now going to the "non wood" cabinets.

2. When I said removable waterfall, I should have said movable waterfall. You are not having to buy an extra Jetpak, just switching it around in your tub to where YOU want it to be.

3. Not NEEDING access to the sides of your spa is the whole reason for the Jetpaks. You don't need to have access to the sides of your tub because 90% of your plumbing is in the water with you.

4. Less plumbing is always best-based on physics. Take a 100 ft garden hose and a 10 ft hose and see how much more water you can move. Less surface resistance.

5. Holes drilled in the tub. Why would you want 73+ holes in your tub as compared to 13??

6. Moving the Jetpaks around. Most people may never move the Jetpaks around ONCE they put them where THEY want them, but what happens when new Jetpaks come out(as just happened with the Waterfall). Everyone who has previously purchased a Bullfrog can get the new technology without having to buy a whole new Bullfrog. Example: A new computer is outdated a few months after you buy it.

Jetpaks put YOU in charge of where YOU want your therapy. What happens if your favorite set of jets are not in your favorite seat?

Have a great day and let us know about your decision.

Mark,

I truly did not intend to bash your opinions on selling the Bullfrogs. Like I said, I was nearly positive that would be the one we were buying, but we came to a revelation (for *us*) that how we were viewing its benefits were not how we'd enjoy them in the end. I know that while we were looking, we liked hearing others' thoughts on what they did and did not like, and I was merely hoping to help Cascade and anyone else looking with my two cents' worth. In the end, it's all a personal decision about every facet of a spa anyway.

I did have concerns when I viewed poolandspa.com's breakdown of reviews, which showed Bullfrog as an Above Average class--two grades below the Best of Class. Arctic and many of the more expensive (unfortunately!) makes were listed as best of class, and this coerced me into checking out some others before making our final decision.

I will include my final assessment after having my tub installed, and I have no problem giving a fair review of my full experience. This is our first hot tub purchase, and it has been a major decision for us. I'd like to address your follow-up after I can test mine first. I know the original poster inquired about Bullfrog, but I think being able to offer insight into spas in general is helpful (it has been to me, anyway, prior to my purchase). Hopefully he is still monitoring.

" title="Smile" /> I did not consider your post as bashing. I fully understand and am aware that everyone will not choose a Bullfrog Spa. My response would have been the same as if you were in my store. I was not trying to be ugly. I was trying to give my opinion for you and anyone else who would read this in the future. I realize that there are alot of people that are looking for info on many different types of spas. That brings me to your second observation on the "Ratings" websites. If you do alot of looking on these spa forums, you will find out that to be listed as "Best of Class" you have to pay so much(I've heard as much as $24,000) to be listed. The consumer who is hungry for any info they can find does not realize that fact. Any site that has advertising on it can not be unbias. Because there are so many consumers looking, there are many websites that do just that. What blows my mind is who is listed as "Best of Class". Many of the manufacturers who are listed there do have a great product. Alot of manufacturers make several brands of hot tubs. They do this to hit all of the price points. High end, mid range and low end. When I see a manufacturer has all three on the Best of Class, that makes me wonder. Bullfrog does not want to play that game. Thanks for your reply. I'll be montoring this site. Good luck and God bless!

Just wanted to let you know that I am still monitoring this post. We have not yet decided on a what tub to buy. We are going to set up an appointment to wet test the bullfrog and get a feel for it. We are also looking at Sundance and Sonoma. Don't know much about either of them but will continue to research. Thank you for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

My 2 cents worth(again)-Sundance makes a great tub as well as Bullfrog. Sonoma is not a very well known name. I went out to there website and saw them. Nothing new except that the warranty did not look as strong as the other 2. It looked like a warranty for a lower end tub. Again I said it looked like. I am by no means an expert.

Before we sold Bullfrog, we sold Sundance for 14 years. It was the Sundance sales rep who told us about Bullfrog. Choosing between the 2 we would definitely go with Bullfrog. It truly is different than any other tub on the market.

I would recommend going to the Bullfrog website and looking at the Multimedia Library(down at the bottom of the page). Then look at the Meet our CEO video. It is great and will give you more insight into the company. Thanks for staying in touch.

Thrilled with my Arctic Spa and glad I passed on the Bullfrog.

My Arctic Spa has been installed, I've had several days to use it, and I thought I would post an update.

Everything went well. The install team followed through with the delivery as expected and got us up and running with 104° heat in about 6 hours. I said I'd be honest, and the one glitch was that it arrived with only 2 LED lights instead of the deluxe lighting package, which they've already set us up for the installation of those. However, they unexpectedly polished the cabinet for us so we got to see how easy that will truly be, and we are thrilled we went for real wood and not the uncomely "maintenance free" types (which really just means that they can't be maintained when their looks do start to deteriorate).

We have no regrets, and--with all due respect to markf--are actually very pleased that we did not settle for the Bullfrog. I would never compare a Sundance anywhere near a Bullfrog, nor would any owners I've spoken to or reviews I've read (again, sorry Mark). From all I've learned, Sundance is comparable to Master, Hot Spring, Dimension 1, Gulf Coast, and Arctic, but Bullfrog is more like the Coleman series (Home Depot). I do have specific bones to pick about what Bullfrog has to offer now that I have something else to compare to it, but unless anyone's interested in hearing some of those, I'll refrain.

I'll continue to monitor this post as well, so if anyone's looking for more information or even has questions about the Arctic, feel free to ask and I'll see if I can help. Happy spa hunting!

JenJen, I'd love to hear more about your Arctic Spa, I'm just begining my spa search, I've only looked online so far but hope to get to some dealers soon, closest one's are at least an hour away. By the way which model did you get and which other options (forever floor, therapy air, etc. ) did you pick? Are the Arctic spa's priced similar to the Hot Springs, D1, Sundance spa's? Thanks, Jeanette " title="Very Happy" />

Hi Jeanette! Hopefully I can offer some suggestions, as I'm so glad our spa journey is over! Wow, can that keep you busy. We kept flitting back and forth between manufacturers and spa features, because they all offer their own "unique" options so that they can call them unique. It's not really comparing apples to apples, unfortunately, which would be so much easier. Being so far from a dealer, though, be sure to find out how service is performed, including trip fees if any, etc, and how long it will take to get someone out to you. Also, find out if there will be an initial delivery fee since you're so far out. Also, beware as you're reading reviews because when you make such a large purchase, you really want to justify that it was money well-spent! So, honestly, all of us with opinions--even though they are true--may be a little biased toward what we chose. At the same time, we (unless you're a dealer) have nothing to gain from sharing our opinions. OK, we decided on the Arctic Frontier, Signature Package, with the black Microban shell, natural cedar cabinet, 72" 2-tier steps, Sand-colored cover, exotic jet package, BaquaSpa kit (chemical-free products), and Deluxe Northern Lights. I didn't worry about this because I knew they were included, but I think the Forever Floor is standard (I've read this on a couple sellers' websites) and I think it's the same for the TruGuard Heater and the Polar Cover Upgrade. All the features are listed on the invoice with price amounts, and honestly, I think one-third of them are either shipped standard or assumed as part of the purchase, but they list them because it looks like you're getting more of a savings. I don't like this, but I noticed most of the companies seemed to do this. We skipped the ozone options, because they don't seem very useful. We also skipped the packages with the air (although I like how the tubs look with all those additional black jets!), as even our dealer felt it was sort of a waste of money. I've read reviews to that effect as well. The CD player seemed ridiculously high ($2000-2500!), although the way it's set to work seems really cool (AquaTremor, so you feel the music through the waves). The pricing seemed similar to the high-end spas, although we had disregarded the Sundance, D1, Hot Spring, and a couple others based on price, because we *thought* we were going with the Bullfrog 451, and were just doing sort of an obligatory look at the competition to make ourselves feel better about the Bullfrog. Once we opened our eyes to the competition, we re-evaluated what we were getting for the price. That was actually more towards the end, prior to the Arctic. What sold us on the Arctic was really the spa configuration. At the time, we loved the dual lounger (new for 2005), because we knew we wanted a lounger and everyone else (in our price range) we saw only offered a single lounger. The Arctic allowed for two people to comfortably lay in about the same space, so four people can very, very comfortably be in there at once. The dual lounger will probably host a "couple", we figure, so it's okay that they touch (and they will). More on the dual lounger later. So, regarding the price, they are considered one of the higher-end spas and you do get what you pay for. I don't feel it was overpriced for what we got, although it was more than we planned on spending. Our dealer's papers show the base Frontier Signature package as $8500, but spas and accessories, etc., are negotiable, and you should hopefully be able to get everything, including tax, for at least $1000 less. I would work towards something like that anyway. It is so attractive. When we first started looking, we were really turned off of the "maintenance-free" cabinets for all but a couple companies (can't remember which ones), which had ones that looked nearly identical to wood. It was so easy to re-stain this Arctic (like I said, I got to watch them do it). That's the good thing about cedar: it's a high quality wood, resistant to bugs, and a restraining can bring a very dull finish (if you didn't maintain it) right back to new. Plus, we can build our accessories in the backyard with the same wood and have it all match together nicely. The plastics used in the other cabinets are still susceptible to sunlight fading and discoloration over time, which warranties likely won't cover because that's considered regular wear and tear. I don't like the fading in even the new composite Terex decking I've seen, and I thought I'd originally love that. Some other things I really like about my Arctic: - The small jets are $12 and the large jets are $15 to replace. This means that at any time we can replace any single jet with exactly the force/direction/motion jet that we like anywhere in the tub. - The areas where new jets can be installed in the tub are already in place, so we know exactly what can go where (big vs. small jet openings). They will come out and install them at any time and work out a deal according to how many additions you want. Plus, these slight "indents" help with more to hold onto while you're soaking. - I absolutely love the waterfall. It flows evenly over the filter area and is illuminated by a light. It sounds awesome and is placed well. - You can have the light on without any pump running, so it's completely silent. Several companies couldn't do that, including Bullfrog, and my husband likes to just sit there in silence. - There is an empty circuit since we didn't get the Therapy Air jets, and you can buy a harness from them directly ($15, haven't gotten ours yet, wonder if Home Depot has it) to hook up anything--extra outdoor lighting, a second control panel that could be mounted inside the house, possibly a stereo setup, etc. - Every jet can be easily adjusted for water power (almost a little too easy), and many of them can be rotated 360°. They pop in and out very easily as well, once you know how to do it. - There's a 3-hook towel/robe holder attached to the frame of the cover lifter (this may be standard for other spas, not sure). What I don't like about my Arctic: - The dual lounger, sort of--we actually really like this, but to further explain: it's not as exciting as we were thinking. For instance, one lounger I love, mostly because I'm short (5'2") and it's a more comfortable position for me. We haven't had any tall people over yet, though, and I'm anxious to find out if they like the other lounger better. I noticed this with other loungers, too, so it's not just the Arctic. Most of the tubs we sat in were for taller people (like maybe 5'8"is). (This is one area that the Bullfrog might have been better, at least model 451, because it was so small. In the end, though, we felt it would be fine for 2 people, but when you're paying for a "4-5 person" spa (so they say), fitting only two comfortably would be a huge waste of money.) We will probably change out a few of the Arctic jets eventually, and I know this will add to the effectiveness for us (we're both shorter). I wish there was an area to hold onto within the tub like the other seats have. Not a big deal, but it would be nice. - I wish there were more flat, protected surfaces. We'll be building an area around the spa eventually. We don't care, but there's no room for extra-large-based cups, just mostly cans or bottles. What to get for sure with your spa: - Cover lifter. This is mandatory in my opinion. - A cool-down seat. Ours has two, and we're already loving this. Some spa companies said to just sit on the shell top, which you can do, too, but when it's even 50° out (let alone freezing), I don't want to get out of the tub THAT much just to cool down for a few minutes. - Consider the Microbar finish (usually a price upgrade) in whatever you choose. We thought we only wanted the lighter, satiny finishes because the lights would look cooler, but I read a lot and talked to dealers about them, and it sounds like they're much harder to clean. Plus, you do need to worry about jewelry more than the textured finishes. - Make sure there's a really thick, tapered cover and try for a bottom base that's anything but wood. We've only had the tub a week, and it will take time to get used to. It's also our very first spa. Let me know if this is helpful. Sorry for this turning out ridiculously long (or if you're reading this for the Bullfrog, which I can also comment on!) " title="Smile" />) so I'll wait and see what you think or if there's more questions. By the way, the Arctic DVD is very cheesy, although it does show some good pictures from the factory and has lots of features discussed. The Bullfrog DVD was cheesy, too--maybe it's an industry thing!--and focused too much on the JetPaks (of course, that's their main selling point). Those are the only two DVDs we received from companies we visited. Best of luck in your search in the meantime!

JenJen, thank you so much for all the great information, you answered several of my questions. I know the only way I'll know which spa is for me is to get out and wet test several spa's but at least I'll be armed with lots of information before I walk into the store's. I'm so glad you mentioned the cedar cabinet, I was thinking "maintenance -free" was the way to go but will definitely give the cedar a good look now. I would like to know how pleased you are with the overall therapy, I have a bad back among other things. Thanks again for all your help and please give an update soon on how your enjoying your new spa!! " title="Smile" /> Jeanette

JenJen, I mistakenly replied to your post while my DH was logged into the forum, sorry! I can be very absent minded especially with computer stuff. ops:" title="Embarassed" /> Jeanette

Here is a concern I have with the bullfrog line of spas and maybe Mark can address it. I have read a few reviews by owners of a bullfrog spa that have complained about smell and growth occuring behind the jetpacks. I'd like an honest response about this since it is definitely a concern. My suspicion is that these owners just aren't too careful about there chemicals but I can see how such a problem could arise. Thanks

Sorry, I didn't answer sooner. In the 2 years we have sold Bullfrog, we have NEVER had any one complaint about anything wrong behind the Jetpaks. And we are one of Bullfrogs largest dealers.(triple digits). With the Jetpaks, there is a jet in the back of the pak to circulate the water. I am not sure when the Bullfrogs were first sold if they always had this feature. Also, starting in Nov. the new 2006 models will have a circulation pump that moves 8 times the amount of water than the standard circ pump. The circ pump will move water behind the Jetpaks so there will be no doubt about stale water. Sometimes you have to do things even when it is not needed.

Another thought: Alot of times on these forums you will have dealers of different brands "bashing" other brands posing as a customer. Even in our town, when a customer is hot tub shopping, if they say that they are looking at a Bullfrog; the salesman will say many things.

A new one I heard is that if you move the Jetpak it will void the warranty! I had to laugh.

Jeanette...so sorry for the delay! I ran into some computer problems and then couldn't get signed into the forums on the one system that was working.

Regarding the therapy from the jets, I've been pleased so far. What I'm finding is that we will be trading out a few of the jets for some different ones. Arctic allows each individual jet to be replaced ($12 for small, $15 for large), and there's maybe three different types (in both sizes). I have two favorites (straight, directional jets and a wave type that's like a massage hand, I guess), and they both address major shoulder and back problems I have. The other kind seems to have its power behind more of a plate, and I don't like it quite as much. Luckily, there's only a few of them, and only a couple jets I'd really like to replace anyway. It's super easy to remove/replace and we'll keep the old ones as backups or for guests who prefer a little less power.

I found one other "mandatory" thing to get for a spa: a display that faces you while you're sitting in the tub. And not one that can just be reversed to read from both directions, but rather one that is angled so you can see everything clearly while you're sitting back in the seats. I wouldn't have thought this to be a big deal, but we look at ours constantly. We never turn it on or do anything with it before getting into the spa, and as long as it's accessible from the outside edge, we haven't done anything where we couldn't figure out easily what keys needed to be pressed.

niteshadepromises - Just wanted to add my 2 cents' worth about the JetPak circulation. Our friends who own a Bullfrog just drained theirs a short time ago, and before we made our final decision, we did ask them about that issue. They said they don't move the JetPaks (which I think is often the case when you find where your favorite seat is anyway), but they didn't seem to see any problems behind theirs. Interestingly enough, however, they did drain theirs before calling us to come over, but that could just be a coincidence!

Hope this helps.

I was reading these post about the Bullfrog vs Arctic Spas and thought that I would throw in a little feed for thought. I have no experience with hot tubs. I am actually shopping around for one myself, but what I do know is some of the physics.

I am a firefighter and deal with pumping, calculating, pressures of water all the time. What the one person posted about the difference between the two lengths of garden hose is true. We call that friction loss. (You are not actually losing friction as it sounds, but you are losing pressure because of the friction). The longer the runs of hose or piping, the more surface area that the water is going to come into contact with. You wouldn't think it would matter, but that water rubbing on the inside of the pipe causes friction and reduces the pressure by the time it comes out the end. The longer the pipe the less pressure where you need it. With our fire hose it can be significant. With the pvc pipe I wouldn't think it would be a whole lot.

I think something that would effect it more would be the diameter of the piping. The smaller the diameter, the more friction loss again. Larger diameter pipes have less friction loss. I read where most of the spa pipes leaving the pump are 2". I had a guy tell me that his company used 2 1/2" pipes, but I don't know if that was true. I never saw them.

The other big kicker in piping is when you have to make turns. Water hitting a 90 degree turn causes a lot of friction loss. Therefore you try to make the turns sweeping as apposed to sharp. To get a visual think of a rainbow. The only problem in the spa is you are limited on space so they may have to have tighter turns. In our fire engines, we try to limit the turns in the piping to avoid this.

When I went in to the Jacuzzi dealer, the lady there asked me if I had ever had that itching feeling on my back after I got out of a hot tub. She said that is because of the pressure and size of the nozzle. So pressure is not always a good thing.

Hey, if there is anything else that you want to know about firefighting, let me know )

Tim

Mark

Do you still sell bullfrog??

Thank you johnnyspa

Sorry for the delay, I don't regularly check this forum. Yes, we still do sell Bullfrog and would not change if we could. After 4 years of selling, they are still the best thing out there.

They have a different story to tell. NO ONE is like them-they do things out of the box.

Thanks,
Mark

When making your buying descision did you consider that the Arctic story about heat lock is full of holes. First you have to have air to run pumps. This would mean that air has to be allowed into the cabinet. If physics is right heat will go to cold hence the reason you insulate your house. Second I agree all of the Arctic cabinet is removable but did you notice any weather stripping to seal all of the cabinet joints together? I'm guessing NO. Are those seams where the cabinet fits together not likely to let in cold air and let out the warm air? I agree with Mark the Bullfrog and Sundance are among the premier spa lines. I have been in the spa industry for over 13 years and have learned one very important thing. The only thing that matters in the end when purchasing a spa is if you can get service from the dealer. The only way a dealer can provide excellent service is when the manufacturer stands behind their product and Sundance and Bullfrog do that very well.

As a reply to Tim, that itchy feeling you get when the jets are hitting an area is due to the increased blood flow in that area. When massaged with hot water it increases blood flow. Also this will cause increased release of endorfins the body natural pain killer.